Comments on: An Interview with David Orr, author of ‘Down to the Wire’. Part Three. http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/ An Evolving Exploration into the Head, Heart and Hands of Energy Descent Mon, 13 Feb 2012 00:35:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mulher Amarelo http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67333 Mulher Amarelo Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:39:32 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67333 What we need to do is stop supporting the big guys: oil, pharmaceutical, agricultural. WE ARE THE REASON THEY ARE BIG. If we stop buying bottled water, Coke, anti-depressants and processed food, they will no longer be BIG and we will be stronger, healthier, smarter, etc. We need to stop thinking that we can't win against the big guys - we make them big and we can make them small. Let's do it!!! What we need to do is stop supporting the big guys: oil, pharmaceutical, agricultural. WE ARE THE REASON THEY ARE BIG. If we stop buying bottled water, Coke, anti-depressants and processed food, they will no longer be BIG and we will be stronger, healthier, smarter, etc. We need to stop thinking that we can’t win against the big guys – we make them big and we can make them small. Let’s do it!!!

]]> By: Cathy Fitzgerald http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67246 Cathy Fitzgerald Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:50:47 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67246 I'm an artist-film-maker trying to engage with these concerns and I also have a background in science research so the conversation illustrated so many difficulties that I face, and I expect are familiar to others working in the arts and sciences. I think the enormity of ecological crisis is particularly paralysing for those in the arts trying to engage with these issues. It also doesn't help that arts education has little interaction with science so artists often feel under-equipped to make a start (I'm lucky that I have a background in science so I feel more confident in this). There are some good art-science projects but there is little where it is needed most, in general arts education. I find this very scary and I see contemporary art education is in crisis in this respect. I've personally found the writings of the Buddhist Thich Nhat Hanh (I'm not a Buddhist by the way) some of the most profound on both accepting that civilisations come and go, ours as it is going, and how as an individual not to lose one's heart and mind in feeling at a loss of how to contribute. It's tiny book 'The World We Have - a Buddhist Approach to Peace and Ecology' 2008 - it doesn't leave my studio. Thanks to the other references made above, I'll check them out too I’m an artist-film-maker trying to engage with these concerns and I also have a background in science research so the conversation illustrated so many difficulties that I face, and I expect are familiar to others working in the arts and sciences.

I think the enormity of ecological crisis is particularly paralysing for those in the arts trying to engage with these issues. It also doesn’t help that arts education has little interaction with science so artists often feel under-equipped to make a start (I’m lucky that I have a background in science so I feel more confident in this). There are some good art-science projects but there is little where it is needed most, in general arts education. I find this very scary and I see contemporary art education is in crisis in this respect.

I’ve personally found the writings of the Buddhist Thich Nhat Hanh (I’m not a Buddhist by the way) some of the most profound on both accepting that civilisations come and go, ours as it is going, and how as an individual not to lose one’s heart and mind in feeling at a loss of how to contribute. It’s tiny book ‘The World We Have – a Buddhist Approach to Peace and Ecology’ 2008 – it doesn’t leave my studio.

Thanks to the other references made above, I’ll check them out too

]]> By: Andrew http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67189 Andrew Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:39:57 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67189 Appreciate this conversation . . . so needed. I think "permaculture" will benefit from upping the emphasis on the human ecosystem as compared to the natural one "out there." Sometimes it appears we assume the personal side will just fall into place but I think it needs its own hard work. ("Work at least as hard in the inner world as the outer," said Rumi.) I found David's thinking of our response in terms of autism to be evocative. It's also that our plight is evolutionarily unprecedented, so conscious intent, not just reliance on instinct is needed. One place that's been deeply healing for me has been small groups, in which there's an invitation to allow and witness whatever is there (the personal pain and anxiety) in the company of others, AND the possibility of action. My own hope is to work with others in supporting such micro-climates of effective human response. Appreciate this conversation . . . so needed.

I think “permaculture” will benefit from upping the emphasis on the human ecosystem as compared to the natural one “out there.” Sometimes it appears we assume the personal side will just fall into place but I think it needs its own hard work. (“Work at least as hard in the inner world as the outer,” said Rumi.)

I found David’s thinking of our response in terms of autism to be evocative. It’s also that our plight is evolutionarily unprecedented, so conscious intent, not just reliance on instinct is needed.

One place that’s been deeply healing for me has been small groups, in which there’s an invitation to allow and witness whatever is there (the personal pain and anxiety) in the company of others, AND the possibility of action. My own hope is to work with others in supporting such micro-climates of effective human response.

]]> By: Beverly Milestone http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67173 Beverly Milestone Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:43:13 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67173 I agree with David that kids are too plugged in but if we are to affect them, we need to touch them in that way. We need to get the climate crisis across to them through the media they inhabit - web, itunes, cell phones. Look how well the Haiti relief utilized the technologies, esp. cell phones. We need to literally plug into these dispersal environments. I agree with David that kids are too plugged in but if we are to affect them, we need to touch them in that way. We need to get the climate crisis across to them through the media they inhabit – web, itunes, cell phones. Look how well the Haiti relief utilized the technologies, esp. cell phones. We need to literally plug into these dispersal environments.

]]> By: Irma Lamers http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67170 Irma Lamers Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:34:39 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67170 To help give animals and other living systems a voice, we can do something: arrange workshops on 'The Council of all beings'. Look for it on the internet and see what is in it for you. To help give animals and other living systems a voice, we can do something: arrange workshops on ‘The Council of all beings’. Look for it on the internet and see what is in it for you.

]]> By: Trugs http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67165 Trugs Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:51:54 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67165 You might like to take a look at Lucy Winkett's book, The Sound is our Wound, an intelligent essay touching on several issues raised by David. There's deep insight into sound and noise, natural, electronic, intentional and unintentional, and what those things do for our relationships with each other and with the natural world - both good and bad. It happens to be from a contemporary Christian perspective because Lucy is an Anglican priest. What she has to say is universal and good evidence that churches have not all been co-opted by the material world...indeed some churches are taking a very strong position on environmental matters. You might like to take a look at Lucy Winkett’s book, The Sound is our Wound, an intelligent essay touching on several issues raised by David. There’s deep insight into sound and noise, natural, electronic, intentional and unintentional, and what those things do for our relationships with each other and with the natural world – both good and bad. It happens to be from a contemporary Christian perspective because Lucy is an Anglican priest. What she has to say is universal and good evidence that churches have not all been co-opted by the material world…indeed some churches are taking a very strong position on environmental matters.

]]> By: Linda Patterson http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67164 Linda Patterson Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:03:28 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67164 Follow up to the question asked by Charles Alban, 20 March--check out Quakers. Follow up to the question asked by Charles Alban, 20 March–check out Quakers.

]]> By: Annie Leymarie http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67160 Annie Leymarie Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:25:12 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67160 David explains that "in some ways we’re autistic” then goes on suggesting what “can move somebody”: “a serious permaculture project” or “a relationship with an animal, or animals, for people who are highly disturbed(…)”. I would agree our species is autistic: not feeling that we ALL need relationships with other animals, that makes us “higly disturbed”! David explains that “in some ways we’re autistic” then goes on suggesting what “can move somebody”: “a serious permaculture project” or “a relationship with an animal, or animals, for people who are highly disturbed(…)”.

I would agree our species is autistic: not feeling that we ALL need relationships with other animals, that makes us “higly disturbed”!

]]> By: John Gray http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67155 John Gray Sat, 20 Mar 2010 07:43:23 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67155 Well, I for one am angry as hell. We have a system of education whose only interest is in keeping the numbers looking good so that funding will be maintained. We have a media system that openly lies to it's public again and again. We have a political system open to abuse, vested interests and corrupt lobbying. No wonder vast swathes of people have no idea. Poorly educated, lied too, badly lead and bombarded with gadgets to keep them preoccupied. It's bad enough that we do it to our children. The fact that our 'system' is set up so we do it to each other is devoid of morality. Well, I for one am angry as hell.
We have a system of education whose only interest is in keeping the numbers looking good so that funding will be maintained.
We have a media system that openly lies to it’s public again and again.
We have a political system open to abuse, vested interests and corrupt lobbying.
No wonder vast swathes of people have no idea. Poorly educated, lied too, badly lead and bombarded with gadgets to keep them preoccupied. It’s bad enough that we do it to our children. The fact that our ‘system’ is set up so we do it to each other is devoid of morality.

]]> By: Charles Alban http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67154 Charles Alban Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:59:57 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67154 People are alienated and disillusioned. They have no guiding star. That's why there's so much ennui. I live in Laguna Beach in So Cal. I've never come across so much misery. Everybody's got a therapist. They're all in "recovery," which is huge business here. The shrinks are cleaning up. AA has meetings throughout the day attended by hundreds of people. Saddleback Church, the original megachurch, is a giant recovery center. Fifty percent of young people are on antidepressants, the rest are doing drugs and alcohol. I've seen no mention of religion in your discussions. After much personal tussling with this issue, I've finally come to the conclusion that without religion there is no hope at all. There has to be a common belief system. There must be a coherent philosophy. There has to be a reason for your existence. There must be a code of conduct to which you and your community adhere to. We have substituted materialism for belief, and the results are disastrous. Environmentalism is a kind of religion, but unless the personal ego is subjugated you've achieved nothing. Voluntary spiritual simplicity is the only answer. Materialism must be rejected in toto. Christianity has been co-opted by the materialistic culture, and just treats symptoms but does not address causes. Who has any ideas for an acceptable anti-materialistic religion? People are alienated and disillusioned. They have no guiding star. That’s why there’s so much ennui. I live in Laguna Beach in So Cal. I’ve never come across so much misery. Everybody’s got a therapist. They’re all in “recovery,” which is huge business here. The shrinks are cleaning up. AA has meetings throughout the day attended by hundreds of people.

Saddleback Church, the original megachurch, is a giant recovery center. Fifty percent of young people are on antidepressants, the rest are doing drugs and alcohol.

I’ve seen no mention of religion in your discussions. After much personal tussling with this issue, I’ve finally come to the conclusion that without religion there is no hope at all.

There has to be a common belief system. There must be a coherent philosophy. There has to be a reason for your existence. There must be a code of conduct to which you and your community adhere to.

We have substituted materialism for belief, and the results are disastrous. Environmentalism is a kind of religion, but unless the personal ego is subjugated you’ve achieved nothing.

Voluntary spiritual simplicity is the only answer. Materialism must be rejected in toto.

Christianity has been co-opted by the materialistic culture, and just treats symptoms but does not address causes.

Who has any ideas for an acceptable anti-materialistic religion?

]]> By: Derek Wall http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67152 Derek Wall Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:18:13 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67152 there's Aidesep, they win victories, halt the destruction, are killed and fight again and win again. While environmentalists do far to little. look up aidesep and support them, above all learn from them, they win, too often environmentalist lose. there’s Aidesep, they win victories, halt the destruction, are killed and fight again and win again.

While environmentalists do far to little.

look up aidesep and support them, above all learn from them, they win, too often environmentalist lose.

]]> By: Ana Simeon http://transitionculture.org/2010/03/19/an-interview-with-david-orr-author-of-down-to-the-wire-part-three/comment-page-1/#comment-67151 Ana Simeon Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:48:00 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=3403#comment-67151 Joanna Macy (Buddhist scholar and activist - www.joannamacy.net) has done some really great work on helping people to allow themselves to experience their pain for the world. She says the foundation is gratitude - first you open your senses to the beauty of nature, fully receive that and feel yourself part of it (and that includes all that is supportive in your life right now). Then you are in a much stronger place to allow anger, grief, fear and emptiness, so the magnitude of what's going on can penetrate beyond daily defenses. There is a book called "Reconnecting to Life" that has a lot of exercises for groups along these lines. Eventually through experiencing the "despair side" and connecting with other people new energy comes up and you move toward action. This is not a one-off but - especially for activists - a recurring cycle that needs nurturing and revisiting so we don't become either insulated or jaded and cynical. The piece about denial and "not being able to deal with much reality", sure, there's that, but I don't think it's so clear-cut in an either/or frame. For me it's more like the light side of the moon and the dark side of the moon: one moon. Joanna Macy (Buddhist scholar and activist – http://www.joannamacy.net) has done some really great work on helping people to allow themselves to experience their pain for the world. She says the foundation is gratitude – first you open your senses to the beauty of nature, fully receive that and feel yourself part of it (and that includes all that is supportive in your life right now). Then you are in a much stronger place to allow anger, grief, fear and emptiness, so the magnitude of what’s going on can penetrate beyond daily defenses. There is a book called “Reconnecting to Life” that has a lot of exercises for groups along these lines. Eventually through experiencing the “despair side” and connecting with other people new energy comes up and you move toward action. This is not a one-off but – especially for activists – a recurring cycle that needs nurturing and revisiting so we don’t become either insulated or jaded and cynical.
The piece about denial and “not being able to deal with much reality”, sure, there’s that, but I don’t think it’s so clear-cut in an either/or frame. For me it’s more like the light side of the moon and the dark side of the moon: one moon.

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