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	<title>Comments on: Vandana Shiva on how Transition initiatives in the North can best help the South</title>
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	<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/</link>
	<description>An Evolving Exploration into the Head, Heart and Hands of Energy Descent</description>
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		<title>By: Hungry City, and What You Can Do About Food &#124; TechnoEarthMama</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-66045</link>
		<dc:creator>Hungry City, and What You Can Do About Food &#124; TechnoEarthMama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-66045</guid>
		<description>[...] did see a video recently, however, in which Dr. Vandana Shiva (author of Soil Not Oil) talks about what [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] did see a video recently, however, in which Dr. Vandana Shiva (author of Soil Not Oil) talks about what [...]</p>
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		<title>By: How the Rich Can Stop Hurting the Poor &#171; The Jizo Chronicles</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65333</link>
		<dc:creator>How the Rich Can Stop Hurting the Poor &#171; The Jizo Chronicles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65333</guid>
		<description>[...] How the Rich Can Stop Hurting the Poor: Sharon Astyk adds her own recommendations to the Transition Initiative&#8217;s recommendations, in an interview with Vandana Shiva,  to help reduce ...: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] How the Rich Can Stop Hurting the Poor: Sharon Astyk adds her own recommendations to the Transition Initiative&#8217;s recommendations, in an interview with Vandana Shiva,  to help reduce &#8230;: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Shane Hughes</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65302</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65302</guid>
		<description>No one is suggesting raising the draw bridge and driving towards &quot;no exports = no work = no income&quot;. You&#039;ve inferred that end and it would indeed be &quot;simplistic nonsense&quot;.
Vandana&#039;s video is 1.53mins long and covers a few headline points which i don&#039;t see are at odds with what you&#039;re saying.  I understand your fears especially given Transitions heavy focus on localisation but i think you&#039;re making this more black and white than it needs to be...

&quot;What are you doing to help them?&quot;

without seeing your body language it&#039;s difficult to see if this was posed as an accusation but i&#039;ll respond anyway.
Much of my extended family are South American, some of them farmers grappling with the issues that you discuss. I lived and worked in South America for 7 years working with people and on projects areas of my environmental passions and will soon return.  Now that i&#039;m in the UK i consume very little (as Vandana rightly suggested) which hopefully reduces pressure on scarce and needed resources. What i consume a consume aware of origin and impact.  

You&#039;ll note that i believe and i try to influence the Transition network that &quot;Until Transition adequately and directly addresses issues of poverty, social justice and peace, it’s only a part transition.&quot;

I&#039;d have to say that your sugar cane example isn&#039;t black and white either. Mauritius is close to being in the top 3rd per capita economically and suffers from the same stark contrast in rich and poor as South America. One could say that to bare this down to an issue of trade would be &quot;simplistic nonsense&quot;. 

Shane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one is suggesting raising the draw bridge and driving towards &#8220;no exports = no work = no income&#8221;. You&#8217;ve inferred that end and it would indeed be &#8220;simplistic nonsense&#8221;.<br />
Vandana&#8217;s video is 1.53mins long and covers a few headline points which i don&#8217;t see are at odds with what you&#8217;re saying.  I understand your fears especially given Transitions heavy focus on localisation but i think you&#8217;re making this more black and white than it needs to be&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;What are you doing to help them?&#8221;</p>
<p>without seeing your body language it&#8217;s difficult to see if this was posed as an accusation but i&#8217;ll respond anyway.<br />
Much of my extended family are South American, some of them farmers grappling with the issues that you discuss. I lived and worked in South America for 7 years working with people and on projects areas of my environmental passions and will soon return.  Now that i&#8217;m in the UK i consume very little (as Vandana rightly suggested) which hopefully reduces pressure on scarce and needed resources. What i consume a consume aware of origin and impact.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;ll note that i believe and i try to influence the Transition network that &#8220;Until Transition adequately and directly addresses issues of poverty, social justice and peace, it’s only a part transition.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d have to say that your sugar cane example isn&#8217;t black and white either. Mauritius is close to being in the top 3rd per capita economically and suffers from the same stark contrast in rich and poor as South America. One could say that to bare this down to an issue of trade would be &#8220;simplistic nonsense&#8221;. </p>
<p>Shane</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Richard L Munisamy</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65297</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Richard L Munisamy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 02:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65297</guid>
		<description>Shane, we saw the same clip. What is clear is that we do not share the same background understanding of the issues. In Mauritius we do not grow coffee, spices or cotton. We grow sugar (exported by sea) which can easily be substituted in Europe by sugar beet. The unilateral decision to do so without helping us make a transition to other crops would devastate us. 

Even this woman&#039;s argument about fresh vegetables is fallacious.  May I suggest you read the fact sheet from FairTrade http://tinyurl.com/yz27zcq from which I quote: 

&quot;While reducing the carbon footprint of food is important, the issue is not black and white.  Air travel for fresh produce represents a tiny portion of overall emissions,  0.1%  for  the  UK. Fairtrade  vegetables  represent  an  important  source  of  income  for marginalized farmers  and workers  in  countries  responsible  for  only  a  fraction  of  overall  global  emissions.&quot;

Many people in Africa do not own land on which they can grow food. They rely on plantations for work. No exports = no work = no income = no education, health care, etc, etc. Africans do not want to return to subsistence farming. They aspire to the quality of life you take for granted. What are you doing to help them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shane, we saw the same clip. What is clear is that we do not share the same background understanding of the issues. In Mauritius we do not grow coffee, spices or cotton. We grow sugar (exported by sea) which can easily be substituted in Europe by sugar beet. The unilateral decision to do so without helping us make a transition to other crops would devastate us. </p>
<p>Even this woman&#8217;s argument about fresh vegetables is fallacious.  May I suggest you read the fact sheet from FairTrade <a href="http://tinyurl.com/yz27zcq" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/yz27zcq</a> from which I quote: </p>
<p>&#8220;While reducing the carbon footprint of food is important, the issue is not black and white.  Air travel for fresh produce represents a tiny portion of overall emissions,  0.1%  for  the  UK. Fairtrade  vegetables  represent  an  important  source  of  income  for marginalized farmers  and workers  in  countries  responsible  for  only  a  fraction  of  overall  global  emissions.&#8221;</p>
<p>Many people in Africa do not own land on which they can grow food. They rely on plantations for work. No exports = no work = no income = no education, health care, etc, etc. Africans do not want to return to subsistence farming. They aspire to the quality of life you take for granted. What are you doing to help them?</p>
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		<title>By: Shane Hughes</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65292</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65292</guid>
		<description>Dr Richard. i&#039;m not sure we sore the same clip??? She talks about the importance of continuing to purchase core commodities like coffee and spices etc...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Richard. i&#8217;m not sure we sore the same clip??? She talks about the importance of continuing to purchase core commodities like coffee and spices etc&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Richard L Munisamy</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65283</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Richard L Munisamy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 04:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65283</guid>
		<description>Simplistic nonsense.

It is not true that only multi-national companies grow cash crops for export from developing countries. In Mauritius sugar is produced by local companies and small planters and exported by a cooperative. If you stop buying sugar from us it will massively impact our balance of trade, we will not be able to buy the goods and services we need to continue our development. In fact you will send us backwards. Is this the kind of transition you want to impose on us?

What is needed is fair trade. Where you pay a fair price to our farmers instead of giving massive profits to mercantile middlemen and supermarket chains. Where you stop subsidising your own farming so that we can compete with you on a level playing field. Don&#039;t stop importing our crops if they come by sea. If necessary we can revert to sailing ships when the oil runs out. But if you insist then send us your technology for free so that we can achieve a fair standard of living. Or is &quot;Contraction and Convergence&quot; an empty phrase for you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simplistic nonsense.</p>
<p>It is not true that only multi-national companies grow cash crops for export from developing countries. In Mauritius sugar is produced by local companies and small planters and exported by a cooperative. If you stop buying sugar from us it will massively impact our balance of trade, we will not be able to buy the goods and services we need to continue our development. In fact you will send us backwards. Is this the kind of transition you want to impose on us?</p>
<p>What is needed is fair trade. Where you pay a fair price to our farmers instead of giving massive profits to mercantile middlemen and supermarket chains. Where you stop subsidising your own farming so that we can compete with you on a level playing field. Don&#8217;t stop importing our crops if they come by sea. If necessary we can revert to sailing ships when the oil runs out. But if you insist then send us your technology for free so that we can achieve a fair standard of living. Or is &#8220;Contraction and Convergence&#8221; an empty phrase for you?</p>
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		<title>By: Shane Hughes</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65269</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65269</guid>
		<description>many have swapped it with the &quot;majority world&quot;. but we&#039;re getting a bit off topic. i&#039;d like to see more of this. While transition inherently works in ways that supports the suggestions put forward by Vandana it&#039;s like the PO and CC argument. Where you can potentially reduce emissions by half and still be vulnerable to peak oil. We could effectively reduce consumption by half but still be putting the majority world under life threatening pressure. Until Trasition adequately and directly addresses issues of poverty, social justice and peace, it&#039;s only a part transition. 
Shane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>many have swapped it with the &#8220;majority world&#8221;. but we&#8217;re getting a bit off topic. i&#8217;d like to see more of this. While transition inherently works in ways that supports the suggestions put forward by Vandana it&#8217;s like the PO and CC argument. Where you can potentially reduce emissions by half and still be vulnerable to peak oil. We could effectively reduce consumption by half but still be putting the majority world under life threatening pressure. Until Trasition adequately and directly addresses issues of poverty, social justice and peace, it&#8217;s only a part transition.<br />
Shane</p>
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		<title>By: Our most important task &#8211; Vandana Shiva &#171; Ukiah Blog Live</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65267</link>
		<dc:creator>Our most important task &#8211; Vandana Shiva &#171; Ukiah Blog Live</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65267</guid>
		<description>[...] Go to video at Transition Culture→ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Go to video at Transition Culture→ [...]</p>
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		<title>By: T. B.</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65266</link>
		<dc:creator>T. B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65266</guid>
		<description>Here are a few geographic visualizations that help to convey where the &#039;North&#039; &#039;West&#039; is -
- http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/16/the-effervesence-of-industrialization/
- http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/23/global-air-traffic/
- http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/26/the-global-distribution-of-starbucks-and-mcdonalds/

These visuals also are very relevant -
http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/30/global-warming-causes-and-effects/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are a few geographic visualizations that help to convey where the &#8216;North&#8217; &#8216;West&#8217; is -<br />
- <a href="http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/16/the-effervesence-of-industrialization/" rel="nofollow">http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/16/the-effervesence-of-industrialization/</a><br />
- <a href="http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/23/global-air-traffic/" rel="nofollow">http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/23/global-air-traffic/</a><br />
- <a href="http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/26/the-global-distribution-of-starbucks-and-mcdonalds/" rel="nofollow">http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/26/the-global-distribution-of-starbucks-and-mcdonalds/</a></p>
<p>These visuals also are very relevant -<br />
<a href="http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/30/global-warming-causes-and-effects/" rel="nofollow">http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/06/30/global-warming-causes-and-effects/</a></p>
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		<title>By: T. B.</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65265</link>
		<dc:creator>T. B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65265</guid>
		<description>Eastern Europe and much of Asia also are exceptions to the talk about the &quot;North.&quot;

These short-hands are better (yet, nevertheless, inadequate) -
(a) &#039;South&#039; and &#039;East&#039;
(b) &#039;North&#039; &#039;West&#039;

&quot;North&quot;-&quot;South&quot; terminology is common though. 

That language has been used a lot in the recent and ongoing climate negotiations. Here&#039;s one important example -
http://understory.ran.org/2009/10/02/reparations-for-climate-chaos/

Here&#039;s a different example -
Last year I was chastised for not settling for that oversimplistic &quot;North&quot;-&quot;South&quot; terminology when I wrote a course paper about development issues.  (That professor thought that a footnote would have been enough to convey my concerns about &quot;North&quot;- &quot;South&quot; language.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eastern Europe and much of Asia also are exceptions to the talk about the &#8220;North.&#8221;</p>
<p>These short-hands are better (yet, nevertheless, inadequate) -<br />
(a) &#8216;South&#8217; and &#8216;East&#8217;<br />
(b) &#8216;North&#8217; &#8216;West&#8217;</p>
<p>&#8220;North&#8221;-&#8221;South&#8221; terminology is common though. </p>
<p>That language has been used a lot in the recent and ongoing climate negotiations. Here&#8217;s one important example -<br />
<a href="http://understory.ran.org/2009/10/02/reparations-for-climate-chaos/" rel="nofollow">http://understory.ran.org/2009/10/02/reparations-for-climate-chaos/</a></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a different example -<br />
Last year I was chastised for not settling for that oversimplistic &#8220;North&#8221;-&#8221;South&#8221; terminology when I wrote a course paper about development issues.  (That professor thought that a footnote would have been enough to convey my concerns about &#8220;North&#8221;- &#8220;South&#8221; language.)</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;Vandana Shiva on how Transition initiatives in the North can best help the South&#8221; &#171; Mobilization for Climate Justice &#8211; London, Ontario</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65263</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Vandana Shiva on how Transition initiatives in the North can best help the South&#8221; &#171; Mobilization for Climate Justice &#8211; London, Ontario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65263</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;Vandana Shiva on how Transition initiatives in the North can best help the&#160;South&#8221;  2009    A video posted on the Transition Culture blog [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;Vandana Shiva on how Transition initiatives in the North can best help the&nbsp;South&#8221;  2009    A video posted on the Transition Culture blog [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65257</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65257</guid>
		<description>She uses the term &#039;South&#039; and &#039;North&#039; in the same way that one might say &#039;Developed&#039; and &#039;Developing&#039; nations, or &#039;First&#039; and &#039;Third&#039; world... although not geographically correct as you note, it is the least condascending of the other available options (although I always liked &#039;two-thirds world&#039;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She uses the term &#8216;South&#8217; and &#8216;North&#8217; in the same way that one might say &#8216;Developed&#8217; and &#8216;Developing&#8217; nations, or &#8216;First&#8217; and &#8216;Third&#8217; world&#8230; although not geographically correct as you note, it is the least condascending of the other available options (although I always liked &#8216;two-thirds world&#8217;).</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Vandana Shiva on how Transition initiatives in the North can best help the South » Transition Culture -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65256</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Vandana Shiva on how Transition initiatives in the North can best help the South » Transition Culture -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65256</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Gabriel Liljenström, TT web: Ed Mitchell. TT web: Ed Mitchell said: Vandana Shiva on how TT initiatives in the north can best help the south: http://bit.ly/1KmzHo from @robintransition [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Gabriel Liljenström, TT web: Ed Mitchell. TT web: Ed Mitchell said: Vandana Shiva on how TT initiatives in the north can best help the south: <a href="http://bit.ly/1KmzHo" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/1KmzHo</a> from @robintransition [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cyrus</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2009/11/11/vandana-shiva-on-how-transition-initiatives-in-the-north-can-best-help-the-south/comment-page-1/#comment-65255</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=3119#comment-65255</guid>
		<description>&quot;southern hemisphere&quot;? 

I don&#039;t think she&#039;s from Australia :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;southern hemisphere&#8221;? </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think she&#8217;s from Australia <img src='http://transitionculture.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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