Comments on: Foodzoning the Foodshed http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/ An Evolving Exploration into the Head, Heart and Hands of Energy Descent Thu, 24 May 2012 15:12:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Green Design » Blog Archive » Fish Systems and Design http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-64237 Green Design » Blog Archive » Fish Systems and Design Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:36:12 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-64237 [...] in the North. In the fast-growing Transition Towns movement, for example, citizen groups are mapping foodsheds and watersheds as the basis for a more holisitc, regional approach to food [...] [...] in the North. In the fast-growing Transition Towns movement, for example, citizen groups are mapping foodsheds and watersheds as the basis for a more holisitc, regional approach to food [...]

]]> By: Fish Systems and Design | nachhaltiger.de http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-64236 Fish Systems and Design | nachhaltiger.de Tue, 25 Aug 2009 22:30:18 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-64236 [...] in the North. In the fast-growing Transition Towns movement, for example, citizen groups are mapping foodsheds and watersheds as the basis for a more holisitc, regional approach to food [...] [...] in the North. In the fast-growing Transition Towns movement, for example, citizen groups are mapping foodsheds and watersheds as the basis for a more holisitc, regional approach to food [...]

]]> By: Creating Transition Bedford « Transition Bedford's Blog http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-62858 Creating Transition Bedford « Transition Bedford's Blog Tue, 26 May 2009 12:46:57 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-62858 [...] it’s an over simplification as the true boundary should be resource driven (i.e by the “foodshed“) and we’re still relearning what that means. In terms of resources a better boundary [...] [...] it’s an over simplification as the true boundary should be resource driven (i.e by the “foodshed“) and we’re still relearning what that means. In terms of resources a better boundary [...]

]]> By: Marcin Gerwin http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61932 Marcin Gerwin Fri, 13 Mar 2009 07:48:27 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61932 DaveDann, this is an important issue that you have raised. Personally I believe that participatory democracy is a pre-condition for sustainable development and for Transition as well, but I can't speak on behalf of the whole movement :) In my city Sopot we are starting with just that. What we would like to achieve is a local system of governance where people are taking decisions regarding the budget and land use themselves and city council is like a board of directors in a company that is employed to implement these decisions (this system is called a democracy). It means that everyone can suggest ideas, they are talked over on the open meeting and definetely all votes count! Those against Transition process as well. It means also that if people will not be interested in preparing for food security, we won't have it :) Regarding the previous discussion on diet - please note that lifestyle choices, at least in the industrialized world, are not like gravity. People are free to choose what they eat, and since their choice may have a negative impact on someone else's life, for me it's not fair. DaveDann, this is an important issue that you have raised. Personally I believe that participatory democracy is a pre-condition for sustainable development and for Transition as well, but I can’t speak on behalf of the whole movement :)

In my city Sopot we are starting with just that. What we would like to achieve is a local system of governance where people are taking decisions regarding the budget and land use themselves and city council is like a board of directors in a company that is employed to implement these decisions (this system is called a democracy). It means that everyone can suggest ideas, they are talked over on the open meeting and definetely all votes count! Those against Transition process as well. It means also that if people will not be interested in preparing for food security, we won’t have it :)

Regarding the previous discussion on diet – please note that lifestyle choices, at least in the industrialized world, are not like gravity. People are free to choose what they eat, and since their choice may have a negative impact on someone else’s life, for me it’s not fair.

]]> By: DaveDann http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61914 DaveDann Thu, 12 Mar 2009 07:49:32 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61914 Of course the implementation of the sort of planning that is being discussed here is generally associated with authoritarian regimes or eras. The history of the 'communist' regimes in the 20 century, particularly right from the start in Russia, is one of the state planners trying to tell the peasants what to do. One lesson to be learned is that you can't ignore PEOPLE in the planning process. When the Minister for Permaculture bans the production of meat the effect will be to massively promote the keeping of chickens and pigs at the back door and in sheds. But also you have to take into account the physical distribution of goods - how you going to get all that food into the cities without use of oil? (A century ago large European cities had the perfect answer - in London the horse and cart would transport horse muck out to the market gardens at places like the Lea Valley and Heathrow and bring back fruit and veg on the return trip - not part of the permaculture plan). Also land ownership - will this change or will present owners be 're-educated'? And, as others have pointed out, some of our presently highly valued and protected grassland ecosystems (e.g. Culm in Devon, chalk grassland in Hants/Wilts/Berks) would apparently disappear under chestnut and lettuce cultivation. Of course the implementation of the sort of planning that is being discussed here is generally associated with authoritarian regimes or eras. The history of the ‘communist’ regimes in the 20 century, particularly right from the start in Russia, is one of the state planners trying to tell the peasants what to do. One lesson to be learned is that you can’t ignore PEOPLE in the planning process. When the Minister for Permaculture bans the production of meat the effect will be to massively promote the keeping of chickens and pigs at the back door and in sheds. But also you have to take into account the physical distribution of goods – how you going to get all that food into the cities without use of oil? (A century ago large European cities had the perfect answer – in London the horse and cart would transport horse muck out to the market gardens at places like the Lea Valley and Heathrow and bring back fruit and veg on the return trip – not part of the permaculture plan). Also land ownership – will this change or will present owners be ‘re-educated’? And, as others have pointed out, some of our presently highly valued and protected grassland ecosystems (e.g. Culm in Devon, chalk grassland in Hants/Wilts/Berks) would apparently disappear under chestnut and lettuce cultivation.

]]> By: Candy http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61909 Candy Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:48:13 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61909 "Hmm… Why would you like to include meat in your Totnes EDAP? I thought that UK is already not self-sufficient in food production. To produce 1 pound of meat it takes around 16 pounds of grain." Unless it spends all of its time eating grass, in locations where the landscape isn't suitable for crops (there is a lot of this in the UK). Or else it eats scraps of food that would otherwise be wasted. I don't think anybody's talking about the quantities of meat that people eat today, but to require everyone to forgo it altogether would be a bit much. “Hmm… Why would you like to include meat in your Totnes EDAP? I thought that UK is already not self-sufficient in food production. To produce 1 pound of meat it takes around 16 pounds of grain.”

Unless it spends all of its time eating grass, in locations where the landscape isn’t suitable for crops (there is a lot of this in the UK). Or else it eats scraps of food that would otherwise be wasted.

I don’t think anybody’s talking about the quantities of meat that people eat today, but to require everyone to forgo it altogether would be a bit much.

]]> By: DaveDann http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61908 DaveDann Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:44:27 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61908 Marcin Gerwin: I don't think I used the word 'fair'. Is it 'fair' that the human population has doubled since I was at school? is it fair that politicians, bureaucrats, businesspeople, experts say that I'm wrong about everything? Is it 'fair' that we are running out of oil? I'm just saying that I have no motivation whatsoever in working for a future that involves living in limited space in a town and eating soyaburgers and, moreover I would add, it won't actually help anyone either. What a word to conjure with - 'fair'! Marcin Gerwin: I don’t think I used the word ‘fair’. Is it ‘fair’ that the human population has doubled since I was at school? is it fair that politicians, bureaucrats, businesspeople, experts say that I’m wrong about everything? Is it ‘fair’ that we are running out of oil? I’m just saying that I have no motivation whatsoever in working for a future that involves living in limited space in a town and eating soyaburgers and, moreover I would add, it won’t actually help anyone either. What a word to conjure with – ‘fair’!

]]> By: Bob Thorp http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61906 Bob Thorp Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:50:36 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61906 Hey Ceridwen -we've got four kids! But then my brother has none like many other friends. Others just have one. Point is population is about women having control over their bodies and their destiny, its about knowledge, choices, efficacy, empowerment, equality and access to resources. In the end its about political struggle (sorry to mention that). On food zoning - we've started to look - as a community - at how we become self-sufficient in veg by 2020. There are lots of barriers for a small town (52k people) to get over, not least of which is the environment and topography - this is Wuthering Heights country - high, bleak and windswept highland zone - great (tolerable) for sheep, rubbish for veg. There are some imaginative ways to overcome naturally imposed limitations (the poly tunnel!)but livestock has been part of the mix since the brigantes and later vikings settled this area (and those folks knew how to keep body and soul together before ffcarbon). It's a happy convergence that sheep provide jumpers and a good dinner. Which takes us on to thinking not just about food but also veg based clothing like cotton, hemp, flax - where's all that coming from without oil based pesticides and fertilisers, transport etc? There are good reasons why specialisation and divisions of labour occurred at a national level and Kent became the garden of England and Keighley and Bradford the centres of worsted stuff. Most of our mills are being turned over to flats and we're planning to drop hydro plant on to their precisous weirs! I love rambling. Hey Ceridwen -we’ve got four kids! But then my brother has none like many other friends. Others just have one. Point is population is about women having control over their bodies and their destiny, its about knowledge, choices, efficacy, empowerment, equality and access to resources. In the end its about political struggle (sorry to mention that).

On food zoning – we’ve started to look – as a community – at how we become self-sufficient in veg by 2020. There are lots of barriers for a small town (52k people) to get over, not least of which is the environment and topography – this is Wuthering Heights country – high, bleak and windswept highland zone – great (tolerable) for sheep, rubbish for veg. There are some imaginative ways to overcome naturally imposed limitations (the poly tunnel!)but livestock has been part of the mix since the brigantes and later vikings settled this area (and those folks knew how to keep body and soul together before ffcarbon).

It’s a happy convergence that sheep provide jumpers and a good dinner. Which takes us on to thinking not just about food but also veg based clothing like cotton, hemp, flax – where’s all that coming from without oil based pesticides and fertilisers, transport etc? There are good reasons why specialisation and divisions of labour occurred at a national level and Kent became the garden of England and Keighley and Bradford the centres of worsted stuff.

Most of our mills are being turned over to flats and we’re planning to drop hydro plant on to their precisous weirs!

I love rambling.

]]> By: Graham Burnett http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61900 Graham Burnett Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:49:58 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61900 Ceridwen, I'm not an expert but I'm sure that much of the problem with 'overpopulation', ie, more people on an area of land than that land can sustainably carry is not to do with 'people thinking “I’ll have however many children I think I will…its my personal choice”' or being 'greedy'/'not listening' but is more to do with the intrinsic negative cycles symptomatic of poverty traps, one example of which being that people in impoverished situations where child mortality is extremely high due to disease, malnourishment and so on will tend to produce more children as a form of security for when they are older. The more children they have the more chance at least some of them will survive to look after them when they are no longer able to work. In the two thirds world this is economic expediency, and people do it because they need to survive, not because they are 'blind'. Its a negative cycle that won't be broken until we transition to economic systems that move away from being based around exploitation and profit and more towards having a fundemantal ethical basis of earthcare, peoplecare and fair shares as well as social justice. All the more reason why we in the West need to become more self-reliant and get off the Two Thirds World's back so that they can use their land and resources to feed and support themselves rather than growing cash crops for export to service world banking debts. Ceridwen, I’m not an expert but I’m sure that much of the problem with ‘overpopulation’, ie, more people on an area of land than that land can sustainably carry is not to do with ‘people thinking “I’ll have however many children I think I will…its my personal choice”’ or being ‘greedy’/'not listening’ but is more to do with the intrinsic negative cycles symptomatic of poverty traps, one example of which being that people in impoverished situations where child mortality is extremely high due to disease, malnourishment and so on will tend to produce more children as a form of security for when they are older. The more children they have the more chance at least some of them will survive to look after them when they are no longer able to work. In the two thirds world this is economic expediency, and people do it because they need to survive, not because they are ‘blind’.
Its a negative cycle that won’t be broken until we transition to economic systems that move away from being based around exploitation and profit and more towards having a fundemantal ethical basis of earthcare, peoplecare and fair shares as well as social justice. All the more reason why we in the West need to become more self-reliant and get off the Two Thirds World’s back so that they can use their land and resources to feed and support themselves rather than growing cash crops for export to service world banking debts.

]]> By: Marcin Gerwin http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61899 Marcin Gerwin Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:23:45 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61899 DaveDann, I'm not sure if I understand your position correctly... Could you please explain in just a few points why do you think it is fair to live in a large house and continue a land-intensive diet, while others are crowding in slums and suffering from malnutrition? Ceridwen, as far as I know lots of the pregnancies in the developing world are unwanted. It means that if only women had an access to contraceptives, the population growth would be slower. To take a concrete action - perhaps you would like to consider supporting one of the NGOs that work on this issue, like Population Action International? DaveDann, I’m not sure if I understand your position correctly… Could you please explain in just a few points why do you think it is fair to live in a large house and continue a land-intensive diet, while others are crowding in slums and suffering from malnutrition?

Ceridwen, as far as I know lots of the pregnancies in the developing world are unwanted. It means that if only women had an access to contraceptives, the population growth would be slower. To take a concrete action – perhaps you would like to consider supporting one of the NGOs that work on this issue, like Population Action International?

]]> By: ceridwen http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61890 ceridwen Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:52:14 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61890 ...and this is where we have one heck of a fundamental problem.....some of us are trying hard to adapt to the future and work together/live together and others are still producing these extra "bodies" (ie more than 2 children per women)...I wish I could see a way through that one - as I personally try/then get "hot under the collar" because others arent seeing THE most basic cause of our problems/then try/then get "hot under the collar" again...etc....etc....We simply wouldnt HAVE this problem if we had the right number of people living on this Planet of ours.....oh God...my head hurts.....how the b****y hell do we get THE most basic environmental message of all over to those who will not listen.....?...I'm blowed if I know...every time I think "Just how the heck do we get the overpopulation message over to those who dont want to listen?" I come straight back round in a circle to "There's none so blind as those that will not see"...and then I get stuck.... I honestly think that that there are two basic reasons why we might not manage to transition through to the Future in one piece: - greed (as in people thinking "I'll have however many children I think I will...its my personal choice"....NO...it seriously/really isnt...but how the heck does one convince those that dont want to be convinced? I wish I knew...One can take a horse to water, but one cant make it drink. - greed (as in people thinking "I'll have however much money/material goods I think I will regardless"....again how does one convince them this isnt acceptable? Both examples of greed are very very difficult questions indeed and I wish I knew the answer...as I despair every time I think about them.... …and this is where we have one heck of a fundamental problem…..some of us are trying hard to adapt to the future and work together/live together and others are still producing these extra “bodies” (ie more than 2 children per women)…I wish I could see a way through that one – as I personally try/then get “hot under the collar” because others arent seeing THE most basic cause of our problems/then try/then get “hot under the collar” again…etc….etc….We simply wouldnt HAVE this problem if we had the right number of people living on this Planet of ours…..oh God…my head hurts…..how the b****y hell do we get THE most basic environmental message of all over to those who will not listen…..?…I’m blowed if I know…every time I think “Just how the heck do we get the overpopulation message over to those who dont want to listen?” I come straight back round in a circle to “There’s none so blind as those that will not see”…and then I get stuck….

I honestly think that that there are two basic reasons why we might not manage to transition through to the Future in one piece:
- greed (as in people thinking “I’ll have however many children I think I will…its my personal choice”….NO…it seriously/really isnt…but how the heck does one convince those that dont want to be convinced? I wish I knew…One can take a horse to water, but one cant make it drink.

- greed (as in people thinking “I’ll have however much money/material goods I think I will regardless”….again how does one convince them this isnt acceptable?

Both examples of greed are very very difficult questions indeed and I wish I knew the answer…as I despair every time I think about them….

]]> By: DaveDann http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61889 DaveDann Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:14:18 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61889 'permaculture zoning'... I must admit I find this 'permaculture' branding tedious. This zoning is as was taught in standard Geog secondary school classes. Do you think thousands of years of farmers haven't practised this? Traditional models include some livestock, which is kept close to the house. In Devon this was taken to an extreme in that the animals were actually IN the house ( it was a 'long house') - which is not much different to the dogs sleeping on my bed today I suppose. Folk here seem very keen on doing sums about food production in their perfect world but it is the whole means of moving from one state to another, through various crises that is going to be the problem. And if you think I'm going back to Hackney to live in flat and eat soya burgers while the population increases by another 3 billion then you've got another think coming. ‘permaculture zoning’… I must admit I find this ‘permaculture’ branding tedious. This zoning is as was taught in standard Geog secondary school classes. Do you think thousands of years of farmers haven’t practised this? Traditional models include some livestock, which is kept close to the house. In Devon this was taken to an extreme in that the animals were actually IN the house ( it was a ‘long house’) – which is not much different to the dogs sleeping on my bed today I suppose.
Folk here seem very keen on doing sums about food production in their perfect world but it is the whole means of moving from one state to another, through various crises that is going to be the problem. And if you think I’m going back to Hackney to live in flat and eat soya burgers while the population increases by another 3 billion then you’ve got another think coming.

]]> By: norberto http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61885 norberto Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:14:19 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61885 hi again, If you want to check Aaron Newton's article on the "Bulleye Diet", this is the link: http://poweringdown.blogspot.com/2007/08/growing-my-own-more-on-bullseye-diet.html norberto hi again,
If you want to check Aaron Newton’s article on the “Bulleye Diet”, this is the link:

http://poweringdown.blogspot.com/2007/08/growing-my-own-more-on-bullseye-diet.html

norberto

]]> By: norberto http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61883 norberto Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:52:08 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61883 I also like the FOOD ZONE diagram idea. However, this is not new. Sharon Astyk and Aaron Newton had the "Bullseye Diet" idea couple of years ago, which is quite similar. You can check Sharon's post here: http://sharonastyk.com/2007/06/28/the-bullseye-diet/ It is so good so many excellent actions are taking place all over the world. The Transition has begun, indeed ! norberto british columbia, canada I also like the FOOD ZONE diagram idea. However, this is not new. Sharon Astyk and Aaron Newton had the “Bullseye Diet” idea couple of years ago, which is quite similar. You can check Sharon’s post here:
http://sharonastyk.com/2007/06/28/the-bullseye-diet/

It is so good so many excellent actions are taking place all over the world. The Transition has begun, indeed !

norberto
british columbia, canada

]]> By: Marcin Gerwin http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/09/foodzoning-the-foodshed/comment-page-1/#comment-61882 Marcin Gerwin Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:08:56 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2419#comment-61882 DaveDann, I woundn't suggest eating comfrey either :) my point is just that it is a possible source for further extraction. Anyway, for industrial purposes vitamin B12 is made by microbial fermentation, which requires much less space than livestock farming. DaveDann, I woundn’t suggest eating comfrey either :) my point is just that it is a possible source for further extraction. Anyway, for industrial purposes vitamin B12 is made by microbial fermentation, which requires much less space than livestock farming.

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