Comments on: Where there’s Muck… the joy of a well aged compost http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/ An Evolving Exploration into the Head, Heart and Hands of Energy Descent Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:18:13 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Ellen Bell http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-63748 Ellen Bell Thu, 23 Jul 2009 14:44:41 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-63748 What a great article. This ought to be reproduced in local newspapers all across the country. If only more people had an appreciation for the process of composting---maybe we could get more backyard composters going in American yards! Or better yet, more composting toilets in American homes, too. What a great article. This ought to be reproduced in local newspapers all across the country. If only more people had an appreciation for the process of composting—maybe we could get more backyard composters going in American yards! Or better yet, more composting toilets in American homes, too.

]]> By: John Cossham http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-62207 John Cossham Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:12:56 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-62207 Hi Ant, your chicken manure compost must be justabout the oldest compost I've heard about. 25 years! But 25 years stored 'dry' will not neccessarily remove the high nutrient levels, but if you've had it in a pile outside with the rain falling on it, then it will be much more acceptable to plant it. As you don't say, I cannot answer your question really. However, whatever the state of this material, I would still be tempted to mix it with a bit of topsoil. Perhaps you could put a little bit of soil in the area where you are transplanting your crops into. Some crops will romp away in this... pumpkins, courgettes, squash, cucumber will probably love it. Potatoes also are capable of coping with growing in pure compost. But carrots, for instance, will not like it at all. I never use pure compost for planting. I always mix leafmould and loam (from turves) into it, and use different ratios for different crops or stages of life. My seed compost is mainly leafmould, low nutrients. My tomato compost is medium nutrient-rich, with a third to half rich compost, and I put curcubits in much richer growing medium. I use no peat at all. John, York, UK Hi Ant, your chicken manure compost must be justabout the oldest compost I’ve heard about. 25 years! But 25 years stored ‘dry’ will not neccessarily remove the high nutrient levels, but if you’ve had it in a pile outside with the rain falling on it, then it will be much more acceptable to plant it. As you don’t say, I cannot answer your question really.

However, whatever the state of this material, I would still be tempted to mix it with a bit of topsoil. Perhaps you could put a little bit of soil in the area where you are transplanting your crops into.

Some crops will romp away in this… pumpkins, courgettes, squash, cucumber will probably love it. Potatoes also are capable of coping with growing in pure compost. But carrots, for instance, will not like it at all.

I never use pure compost for planting. I always mix leafmould and loam (from turves) into it, and use different ratios for different crops or stages of life. My seed compost is mainly leafmould, low nutrients. My tomato compost is medium nutrient-rich, with a third to half rich compost, and I put curcubits in much richer growing medium. I use no peat at all.
John, York, UK

]]> By: Ant Eudall http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-62197 Ant Eudall Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:12:35 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-62197 my wife and i just about to embark on my first attempt at growing vegetables so you'll have to forgive my noobi status. We've made a couple of raised beds and have filled them with some chicken manure that has been ageing for over 25 years. Is this now considered compost? and can we plant directly into it? my wife and i just about to embark on my first attempt at growing vegetables so you’ll have to forgive my noobi status. We’ve made a couple of raised beds and have filled them with some chicken manure that has been ageing for over 25 years. Is this now considered compost? and can we plant directly into it?

]]> By: Round-up of the week « Transition Town Farnham http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61935 Round-up of the week « Transition Town Farnham Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:36:39 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61935 [...] Compost > Local food zones > How to Grow More Vegetables Than You Ever Thought Possible > [...] [...] Compost > Local food zones > How to Grow More Vegetables Than You Ever Thought Possible > [...]

]]> By: John Cossham http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61902 John Cossham Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:57:49 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61902 Just a comment on Jan's post... faecal matter can be composted hot to reduce pathogens, and this can be for a short time if very hot, or a longer time if not so hot. However, it can be composted in a cold heap for a much longer time, in which case the resultant material will be much the same.. as pathogens cannot live for ever in a material which progressively becomes less and less like their preferred habitat, so to speak. However, cold composted humanure may have viable worm eggs and perhaps other parasites, if the producer of the humanure is infected. Hot composting rarely completely pasteurises the entire batch, unless the batch of humanure containing material is put in the centre of a hot working heap, or an extremely well insulated one, or through a machine like a Big Hannah or Rocket, which ensures a long retention time with reliable extra heating, insulation and tumbling/rotation. Home hot heaps nearly always have cold edges, and turning won't always mix every outside layer into the middle, so you'll be left with some 'unpasteurised' humanure compost in most home hot heaps. Also, we need to realise that ordinary garden soil is not 'pathogen free' as plenty of birds and mammals defecate onto it without our knowing, and so the usual hygiene precautions of handwashing after being in the garden whether or not you've been composting should be taken... So, just a recap, faeces which is hot composted *may* have the pathogens destroyed, but may not, and there are other precautions you can take and other ways of humanure composting. Also, don't use it to grow salad carrots/lettuce in... I use it in containers inside a conservatory for tomatoes and cucumbers... up away from potential contamination. Hope this is helpful and reduces fear and worry about what is infact an easy and healthy thing to do. John, York Just a comment on Jan’s post… faecal matter can be composted hot to reduce pathogens, and this can be for a short time if very hot, or a longer time if not so hot. However, it can be composted in a cold heap for a much longer time, in which case the resultant material will be much the same.. as pathogens cannot live for ever in a material which progressively becomes less and less like their preferred habitat, so to speak.
However, cold composted humanure may have viable worm eggs and perhaps other parasites, if the producer of the humanure is infected.
Hot composting rarely completely pasteurises the entire batch, unless the batch of humanure containing material is put in the centre of a hot working heap, or an extremely well insulated one, or through a machine like a Big Hannah or Rocket, which ensures a long retention time with reliable extra heating, insulation and tumbling/rotation. Home hot heaps nearly always have cold edges, and turning won’t always mix every outside layer into the middle, so you’ll be left with some ‘unpasteurised’ humanure compost in most home hot heaps.
Also, we need to realise that ordinary garden soil is not ‘pathogen free’ as plenty of birds and mammals defecate onto it without our knowing, and so the usual hygiene precautions of handwashing after being in the garden whether or not you’ve been composting should be taken…

So, just a recap, faeces which is hot composted *may* have the pathogens destroyed, but may not, and there are other precautions you can take and other ways of humanure composting.

Also, don’t use it to grow salad carrots/lettuce in… I use it in containers inside a conservatory for tomatoes and cucumbers… up away from potential contamination.

Hope this is helpful and reduces fear and worry about what is infact an easy and healthy thing to do.
John, York

]]> By: Jan Steinman http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61897 Jan Steinman Wed, 11 Mar 2009 07:11:19 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61897 Bev wrote: <i>"... is this the same system as the author of the Humanure Handbook (Joe Jenkins) uses, i.e. urine and fecal matter all in the same bucket then dumped onto a heap and left to age?"</i> Have you read Joe's book? I don't think this is at all what he's about. He emphasizes that you <b>can</b> do that if you want, but that there are advantages to separating urine and feces. For one, urine is sterile, and can be used immediately for nitrogen and phosphorous. Just dilute it 1:10 and spray it on your plants. However, faeces <b>must</b> be hot-composted to destroy pathogens. Thanks, Steve Atkins, for providing the links to Joe Jenkins' book. We're hoping to have him do sessions on humanure and slate roofing at our <a href="http://www.EcoReality.org/wiki/" rel="nofollow">Permaculture Design Course,</a> 6-21 June, 2009, in southwest British Columbia, Canada. (Sorry if this is a repeat. How do you preview or edit postings?) Bev wrote: “… is this the same system as the author of the Humanure Handbook (Joe Jenkins) uses, i.e. urine and fecal matter all in the same bucket then dumped onto a heap and left to age?”

Have you read Joe’s book? I don’t think this is at all what he’s about. He emphasizes that you can do that if you want, but that there are advantages to separating urine and feces.

For one, urine is sterile, and can be used immediately for nitrogen and phosphorous. Just dilute it 1:10 and spray it on your plants.

However, faeces must be hot-composted to destroy pathogens.

Thanks, Steve Atkins, for providing the links to Joe Jenkins’ book. We’re hoping to have him do sessions on humanure and slate roofing at our Permaculture Design Course, 6-21 June, 2009, in southwest British Columbia, Canada.

(Sorry if this is a repeat. How do you preview or edit postings?)

]]> By: Jan Steinman http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61896 Jan Steinman Wed, 11 Mar 2009 07:10:22 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61896 Bev wrote: <i>"... is this the same system as the author of the Humanure Handbook (Joe Jenkins) uses, i.e. urine and fecal matter all in the same bucket then dumped onto a heap and left to age?" Have you read Joe's book? I don't think this is at all what he's about. He emphasizes that you <b>can</b> do that if you want, but that there are advantages to separating urine and feces. For one, urine is sterile, and can be used immediately for nitrogen and phosphorous. Just dilute it 1:10 and spray it on your plants. However, faeces <b>must</b> be hot-composted to destroy pathogens. Thanks, Steve Atkins, for providing the links to Joe Jenkins' book. We're hoping to have him do sessions on humanure and slate roofing at our <a href="http://www.EcoReality.org/wiki/" rel="nofollow">Permaculture Design Course,</a> 6-21 June, 2009, in southwest British Columbia, Canada.</i> Bev wrote: “… is this the same system as the author of the Humanure Handbook (Joe Jenkins) uses, i.e. urine and fecal matter all in the same bucket then dumped onto a heap and left to age?”

Have you read Joe’s book? I don’t think this is at all what he’s about. He emphasizes that you can do that if you want, but that there are advantages to separating urine and feces.

For one, urine is sterile, and can be used immediately for nitrogen and phosphorous. Just dilute it 1:10 and spray it on your plants.

However, faeces must be hot-composted to destroy pathogens.

Thanks, Steve Atkins, for providing the links to Joe Jenkins’ book. We’re hoping to have him do sessions on humanure and slate roofing at our Permaculture Design Course, 6-21 June, 2009, in southwest British Columbia, Canada.

]]> By: Melson http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61884 Melson Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:56:19 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61884 I would also like to know more about Mr. Marcus' techniques. I've read the Humanure Handbook and 'bucket moethod' sounds like Jenkins' technique, although he claims that two years is more than enough time to make great compost. I would also like to know more about Mr. Marcus’ techniques. I’ve read the Humanure Handbook and ‘bucket moethod’ sounds like Jenkins’ technique, although he claims that two years is more than enough time to make great compost.

]]> By: Transition Housewife http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61877 Transition Housewife Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:35:46 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61877 Excellent article, and great comments and links. thank you!! I recently found out that a local riding school was actually paying a a company to take away their muck and was desperate to find some gardeners to take it away for free. Lucky me, I've been after a source of well rotted manure for ages!! Catch up with you on that subject in 4 years. Excellent article, and great comments and links. thank you!!

I recently found out that a local riding school was actually paying a a company to take away their muck and was desperate to find some gardeners to take it away for free. Lucky me, I’ve been after a source of well rotted manure for ages!! Catch up with you on that subject in 4 years.

]]> By: John Cossham http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61839 John Cossham Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:30:15 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61839 Hi there, a reader of my low carbon lifestyle blog sent me the link to this article, knowing my love of all things compost... and yes, it is incredibly satisfying to turn what most people like to 'flush and forget' into a rich crumbly useful compost. I have two Clearview woodstoves which cause me to generate a fair load of sawdust..... the ideal cover to humanure, and carbon-rich material to compost it with. I use a handful of dry, fresh sawdust in the base of the commode pot, then some partly composted sawdust which I've made in a 'dalek' and periodically scoop out of the bottom hatch for the cover material. This moist fungus and bacteria-rich material has two benefits within the compost toilet... it works as a physical cover, a barrier to the 'aroma' of your dump, and it's a biochemical barrier too, as the microorganisms in the sawdust use the long-chain smell molecules as nutrition, and the moist sawdust adsorbs the smell and the wee beasties eat it all up. My toilet room is unventilated, yet it doesn't smell horrible, as the cover material removes the odour. I try to put most of my urine on a compost heap or leafmould pile (or sawdust in a dalek) but I also pee in the commode, and the dry sawdust underneath absorbs this. I compost the contents of the brewing bucket I tip the potty into in another dalek... I have a row of 3, each one takes a year to a year and a half to fill; I leave the material for about 4 years before using in my container growing medium. How satisfying is growing food in humanure compost? A very natural cycle! John Cossham, York, UK Hi there, a reader of my low carbon lifestyle blog sent me the link to this article, knowing my love of all things compost… and yes, it is incredibly satisfying to turn what most people like to ‘flush and forget’ into a rich crumbly useful compost.
I have two Clearview woodstoves which cause me to generate a fair load of sawdust….. the ideal cover to humanure, and carbon-rich material to compost it with. I use a handful of dry, fresh sawdust in the base of the commode pot, then some partly composted sawdust which I’ve made in a ‘dalek’ and periodically scoop out of the bottom hatch for the cover material. This moist fungus and bacteria-rich material has two benefits within the compost toilet… it works as a physical cover, a barrier to the ‘aroma’ of your dump, and it’s a biochemical barrier too, as the microorganisms in the sawdust use the long-chain smell molecules as nutrition, and the moist sawdust adsorbs the smell and the wee beasties eat it all up.
My toilet room is unventilated, yet it doesn’t smell horrible, as the cover material removes the odour.
I try to put most of my urine on a compost heap or leafmould pile (or sawdust in a dalek) but I also pee in the commode, and the dry sawdust underneath absorbs this.
I compost the contents of the brewing bucket I tip the potty into in another dalek… I have a row of 3, each one takes a year to a year and a half to fill; I leave the material for about 4 years before using in my container growing medium.

How satisfying is growing food in humanure compost? A very natural cycle!
John Cossham, York, UK

]]> By: Lemercier Pierre-Louis - Renewable Energy Centre - RSA http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61834 Lemercier Pierre-Louis - Renewable Energy Centre - RSA Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:47:57 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61834 Very Interesting. But 4 to 5 years isn't it a bit too long ? Why not combining with the vermicompost, which produces rapidly compost for you ? You place yr worms and organic matter in a specially made cage. You feed them from the top with all yr kitchen left overs plus some more dry organic material from yr garden, the worms digest all this and you collect the compost, which falls from the bottom of the cage. Regards Very Interesting. But 4 to 5 years isn’t it a bit too long ?

Why not combining with the vermicompost, which produces rapidly compost for you ? You place yr worms and organic matter in a specially made cage.

You feed them from the top with all yr kitchen left overs plus some more dry organic material from yr garden, the worms digest all this and you collect the compost, which falls from the bottom of the cage.

Regards

]]> By: Steve Atkins http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61832 Steve Atkins Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:27:42 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61832 I've read up quite a bit about various compost toilet systems, some of which are very expensive and very plastic. My own conclusion is that the Joseph Jenkins bucket/ humanure system is by far the best in terms of low cost and with perfect results. Firstly, I suggest anyone even slightly interested in this subject to read Joseph Jenkins book...you can download it for free here or support him by buying a copy: http://jenkinspublishing.com/humanure_contents.html There is also a message board here which has some extra interesting stuff: http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/messages/ ...for anyone with a small/or zero garden local community composting could be the way forwards. Local authorities are highly likely to object to such a community humanure system; I think they just need re-educating about shit. ; ) I’ve read up quite a bit about various compost toilet systems, some of which are very expensive and very plastic.

My own conclusion is that the Joseph Jenkins bucket/ humanure system is by far the best in terms of low cost and with perfect results.

Firstly, I suggest anyone even slightly interested in this subject to read Joseph Jenkins book…you can download it for free here or support him by buying a copy:
http://jenkinspublishing.com/humanure_contents.html

There is also a message board here which has some extra interesting stuff:
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/messages/

…for anyone with a small/or zero garden local community composting could be the way forwards. Local authorities are highly likely to object to such a community humanure system; I think they just need re-educating about shit.

; )

]]> By: ceridwen http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61829 ceridwen Sun, 08 Mar 2009 08:48:53 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61829 Another one by Rosengarten of interest: http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/night-soil.html Another one by Rosengarten of interest:

http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/night-soil.html

]]> By: ceridwen http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61828 ceridwen Sun, 08 Mar 2009 08:46:07 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61828 My Swedish gardenblogger friend has done a mini-series of posts on natural fertiliser on her blog - the main one of interest is on: http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/ecosan-part-deux-toilet-in-bangalore.html regards ceridwen My Swedish gardenblogger friend has done a mini-series of posts on natural fertiliser on her blog – the main one of interest is on:

http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/ecosan-part-deux-toilet-in-bangalore.html

regards
ceridwen

]]> By: ceridwen http://transitionculture.org/2009/03/06/where-there%e2%80%99s-muck-the-joy-of-a-well-aged-compost/comment-page-1/#comment-61827 ceridwen Sun, 08 Mar 2009 08:42:52 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=2417#comment-61827 My Swedish blogger friend Rosengarten has done a mini-series on "natural" fertilisers on her gardenblog which might be of interest: http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/liquid-gold.html http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/night-soil.html http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/ecosan-part-deux-toilet-in-bangalore.html http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/green-leaves-gives-green-leaves.html http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/02/rounding-off-series-on-fertilizers.html regards ceridwen My Swedish blogger friend Rosengarten has done a mini-series on “natural” fertilisers on her gardenblog which might be of interest:

http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/liquid-gold.html

http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/night-soil.html

http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/ecosan-part-deux-toilet-in-bangalore.html

http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/01/green-leaves-gives-green-leaves.html

http://indoorgardener.blogspot.com/2009/02/rounding-off-series-on-fertilizers.html

regards
ceridwen

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