Comments on: Learning to Live with Solar Panels http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/ An Evolving Exploration into the Head, Heart and Hands of Energy Descent Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:05:18 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Graham Burnett http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-60072 Graham Burnett Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:33:58 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-60072 <p>But watch out for the sharks... http://www.itsnoteasybeinggreen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15325&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0</p> But watch out for the sharks…
http://www.itsnoteasybeinggreen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15325&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

]]> By: Total Solar Energy http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-60045 Total Solar Energy Thu, 06 Nov 2008 14:39:07 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-60045 <p>I'm glad you're pleased with your panels. Evacuated tubes are more efficient though. Flat plate collectors only provide a useful amount of heat during the summer months in somewhere like the UK. Vacuum tube collectors on the Evacuated tube panels will provide useful heat year round as long as the sun is shining. They can even produce heat in overcast weather.</p> I’m glad you’re pleased with your panels. Evacuated tubes are more efficient though. Flat plate collectors only provide a useful amount of heat during the summer months in somewhere like the UK. Vacuum tube collectors on the Evacuated tube panels will provide useful heat year round as long as the sun is shining. They can even produce heat in overcast weather.

]]> By: Graham Burnett http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59964 Graham Burnett Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:47:56 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59964 <p>More discussion of flat panels vs evacuated tubes here http://www.itsnoteasybeinggreen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15662 I'd still be interested in why you (Rob) went for flat tubes rather than evacuated tubes as my potentail installer is coming round for a chat about it next Tuesday, so would prefer to be as informed as possible before then! cheers Graham</p> More discussion of flat panels vs evacuated tubes here http://www.itsnoteasybeinggreen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15662
I’d still be interested in why you (Rob) went for flat tubes rather than evacuated tubes as my potentail installer is coming round for a chat about it next Tuesday, so would prefer to be as informed as possible before then! cheers Graham

]]> By: Mandy http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59956 Mandy Sat, 25 Oct 2008 18:29:44 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59956 <p>I know it's rude to ask these things Rob, but how much did your system cost? Mandy</p> I know it’s rude to ask these things Rob, but how much did your system cost?
Mandy

]]> By: Robert Palgrave http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59748 Robert Palgrave Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:21:22 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59748 <p>Hot fill dish- and clothes-washing machines are not generally available, so it appears at first sight that those of us with solar water heating are missing a trick because we are using electricity to heat the water inside the machines. BUT - a simple experiment shows that this is probably sensible for the great majority of installations. Using the hot tap nearest the dish washer or washing machine, run off into a bucket enough water that would approximately fill the machine. (for modern machines, that will be quite a small amount - you can probably find the data in the machine's manual). You'll find that the water in the bucket is lukewarm at best. It's full of the standing cold water in the pipe run from your hot water cylinder, with a bit of hot (maybe), whereas that long pipe is now full of hot water and will lose its heat in a few minutes. Most of the work your solar panel has done is being wasted - granted some of it will reduce the electrical power consumed by the dishwasher, but it's unlikely to be much. Largely it is heating your house through your hot water pipework. And of course if you are washing your clothes at 30 degrees, the power consumption for water heating is not a great portion of the total. With dishwashers, a lot of the electrical consumption is due to the drying cycle, and you can make big savings by choosing a cycle without drying if available, or by switching the machine off when it has finished the final rinse. Probably of less significance but worth pointing out is that modern clothes washing detergents are apparently optimised for use in water that starts cold and is heated, rather than being dissolved in hot straight away.</p> <p>As far as learning to live with solar panels is concerned, there's a very interesting report from BRE and Viridian at http://www.viridiansolar.co.uk/News%20Articles/2008/08_06_Viridian_Announces_Monitoring_results.htm It demonstrates that people who take the trouble to adapt their use of hot water to when it's available, make significantly greater savings than people who don't bother to understand how the system works.</p> <p>Rob</p> Hot fill dish- and clothes-washing machines are not generally available, so it appears at first sight that those of us with solar water heating are missing a trick because we are using electricity to heat the water inside the machines.
BUT – a simple experiment shows that this is probably sensible for the great majority of installations. Using the hot tap nearest the dish washer or washing machine, run off into a bucket enough water that would approximately fill the machine. (for modern machines, that will be quite a small amount – you can probably find the data in the machine’s manual). You’ll find that the water in the bucket is lukewarm at best. It’s full of the standing cold water in the pipe run from your hot water cylinder, with a bit of hot (maybe), whereas that long pipe is now full of hot water and will lose its heat in a few minutes.
Most of the work your solar panel has done is being wasted – granted some of it will reduce the electrical power consumed by the dishwasher, but it’s unlikely to be much. Largely it is heating your house through your hot water pipework.
And of course if you are washing your clothes at 30 degrees, the power consumption for water heating is not a great portion of the total.
With dishwashers, a lot of the electrical consumption is due to the drying cycle, and you can make big savings by choosing a cycle without drying if available, or by switching the machine off when it has finished the final rinse.
Probably of less significance but worth pointing out is that modern clothes washing detergents are apparently optimised for use in water that starts cold and is heated, rather than being dissolved in hot straight away.

As far as learning to live with solar panels is concerned, there’s a very interesting report from BRE and Viridian at http://www.viridiansolar.co.uk/News%20Articles/2008/08_06_Viridian_Announces_Monitoring_results.htm
It demonstrates that people who take the trouble to adapt their use of hot water to when it’s available, make significantly greater savings than people who don’t bother to understand how the system works.

Rob

]]> By: Get set… « Transition Farnham http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59743 Get set… « Transition Farnham Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:49:19 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59743 <p>[...] website has carried a number of interesting articles this week, including: • what it’s like living with solar panels • the beginnings of Transition City Los Angeles, and • how to get involved with making the [...]</p> [...] website has carried a number of interesting articles this week, including: • what it’s like living with solar panels • the beginnings of Transition City Los Angeles, and • how to get involved with making the [...]

]]> By: Eco-Cide: Exploring Ecology http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59721 Eco-Cide: Exploring Ecology Thu, 09 Oct 2008 13:36:57 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59721 <p>[...] about the silliness of talking about payback times. Now Rob has written a follow up post about his own experiences with solar water heating in which he reveals that he is taking his solar exploits a little further, in that rather than [...]</p> [...] about the silliness of talking about payback times. Now Rob has written a follow up post about his own experiences with solar water heating in which he reveals that he is taking his solar exploits a little further, in that rather than [...]

]]> By: Eddy De Clercq http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59720 Eddy De Clercq Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:14:28 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59720 <p>Hi,</p> <p>I have a solar boiler installed some years ago. This hot water is off course used in the kitchen - you don’t need use a much gas/electricity to boil water anymore - and the bathroom. As mentioned in this <a href="http://www.grumpyoldman.be/batteries-not-included/" rel="nofollow">blog</a> I wondered if we couldn’t use it for other appliances like the washing machine and the dish washer. They use a lot of electricity in order to get the water at the right temperature. We have a device now that enables you to fill hot water from the sun boiler into the washing machine</p> <p>Eddy</p> Hi,

I have a solar boiler installed some years ago. This hot water is off course used in the kitchen – you don’t need use a much gas/electricity to boil water anymore – and the bathroom. As mentioned in this blog I wondered if we couldn’t use it for other appliances like the washing machine and the dish washer. They use a lot of electricity in order to get the water at the right temperature.
We have a device now that enables you to fill hot water from the sun boiler into the washing machine

Eddy

]]> By: neckie http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59710 neckie Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:06:22 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59710 <p>We're just about to order a wood burning stove from the manufacturers and we're informed theres a sixteen week waiting list. Should be in by spring then!! At least we wont have to worry about running out of wood this winter!</p> We’re just about to order a wood burning stove from the manufacturers and we’re informed theres a sixteen week waiting list. Should be in by spring then!! At least we wont have to worry about running out of wood this winter!

]]> By: Graham Burnett http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59702 Graham Burnett Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:10:40 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59702 <p>Hi Rob, is there a reason why you avoured flat panels over evacuated tubes? Our friends who live around the corner from us have the latter http://www.flickr.com/photos/transitionwestcliff/2171036507/in/set-72157603645168948/ and say they are very good, but obviously the more information we have from 'real users' the better informed we will be when it comes to making our own choice (if our installer ever gets time away from fitting wood burners...)</p> Hi Rob, is there a reason why you avoured flat panels over evacuated tubes? Our friends who live around the corner from us have the latter http://www.flickr.com/photos/transitionwestcliff/2171036507/in/set-72157603645168948/ and say they are very good, but obviously the more information we have from ‘real users’ the better informed we will be when it comes to making our own choice (if our installer ever gets time away from fitting wood burners…)

]]> By: David Johnson http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59692 David Johnson Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:23:20 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59692 <p>Ha! Ha! - I had to laugh Rob when you mentioned the Excel spreadsheets. Mine was more a table hastily scrawled together on a piece of paper, but sure enough figures were written down, the weather on that particular day - and anyone who stayed in the house while I was away was instructed on how to keep the table filled in!</p> Ha! Ha! – I had to laugh Rob when you mentioned the Excel spreadsheets. Mine was more a table hastily scrawled together on a piece of paper, but sure enough figures were written down, the weather on that particular day – and anyone who stayed in the house while I was away was instructed on how to keep the table filled in!

]]> By: Eric Booth http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59691 Eric Booth Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:49:15 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59691 <p>Nice article and I know exactly what you're talking about as we've had our system in for two years now. I'm very familiar with the panel displaying temperature and have even spent hours recording what's happening on a minute by minute basis to work out if it's configured correctly. I should say that our system is more complicated than most as we have two tanks in series to maximise the amount we collect with the gas boiler topping up the primary as required (and yes, I kept that secret from the kids for as long as I could).</p> <p>One point I'd encourage people to consider carefully is the length of the run from the collector to the tanks, and indeed from the tank to the points of use. Our collector is on the roof but our tanks are in the cellar leading to large runs and lots of dead water cooling down when the pump stops. We also had a problem when the initial installation didn't have non-return valves and we ended up exporting by convection our carefully collected heat from the tank back out through the collector overnight!</p> <p>By the way, if you think you're getting obsessed by numbers and meters with solar collectors, just wait until you put the solar pv in and start watching generator, export and import meters for electricity, then how they are affected by different appliances and how sunny it is...</p> Nice article and I know exactly what you’re talking about as we’ve had our system in for two years now. I’m very familiar with the panel displaying temperature and have even spent hours recording what’s happening on a minute by minute basis to work out if it’s configured correctly. I should say that our system is more complicated than most as we have two tanks in series to maximise the amount we collect with the gas boiler topping up the primary as required (and yes, I kept that secret from the kids for as long as I could).

One point I’d encourage people to consider carefully is the length of the run from the collector to the tanks, and indeed from the tank to the points of use. Our collector is on the roof but our tanks are in the cellar leading to large runs and lots of dead water cooling down when the pump stops. We also had a problem when the initial installation didn’t have non-return valves and we ended up exporting by convection our carefully collected heat from the tank back out through the collector overnight!

By the way, if you think you’re getting obsessed by numbers and meters with solar collectors, just wait until you put the solar pv in and start watching generator, export and import meters for electricity, then how they are affected by different appliances and how sunny it is…

]]> By: Graham Burnett http://transitionculture.org/2008/10/08/learning-to-live-with-solar-panels/comment-page-1/#comment-59690 Graham Burnett Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:55:49 +0000 http://transitionculture.org/?p=1739#comment-59690 <p>Hi Rob, we did things the other way round, put in the wood burning rayburn with back boiler first (about a year ago), with the intention of adding solar panels this year. We were going to get the same person (Scarlett fireplaces, who are TT Westcliff supporters http://westclifftransition.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/wood-fuel-for-a-low-energy-future/ ) to fit the panels, but as you say, he's been rushed off his feet installing woodburners since the summer and hasn't had time!</p> Hi Rob, we did things the other way round, put in the wood burning rayburn with back boiler first (about a year ago), with the intention of adding solar panels this year. We were going to get the same person (Scarlett fireplaces, who are TT Westcliff supporters http://westclifftransition.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/wood-fuel-for-a-low-energy-future/ ) to fit the panels, but as you say, he’s been rushed off his feet installing woodburners since the summer and hasn’t had time!

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