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	<title>Comments on: Follow-up to &#8216;The Big Melt&#8217; Challenges Assumptions on Co2 Targets.</title>
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	<link>http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/</link>
	<description>An Evolving Exploration into the Head, Heart and Hands of Energy Descent</description>
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		<title>By: Robert Morgan</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/comment-page-1/#comment-52872</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/#comment-52872</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I also have to say that while this document is excellent in some ways and mostly well reasoned, there are aspects which would prevent it being taken seriously by those who would wish to sweep aside these issues.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;First, it has not been properly proof-read and has literally dozens of typos. This suggests rushed and sloppy work.  Many of the citations in the text are missing from the reference section, so one does not know the quality of many of the sources of information or even if they say what is claimed.  Many references are of poor quality and credibility - privately-run websites, blogs, newspaper articles, etc.  More seriously, many assertions are presented as if facts, with no reference and no apparent research.  An example is (p.19): &quot;This physically very large &#039;albedo switch&#039; [caused by loss of summer Arctic ice] will lead to further warming in the Arctic of several degrees which will contribute to the destabilization of the Greenland ice sheet&quot;.  This is simply not proven to be the case, though in my opinion (an opinion only), it will probably happen.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It is a shame that is has so many obvious shortcomings, as a few days of extra work and more care would have made a very powerful and pursuasive document.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also have to say that while this document is excellent in some ways and mostly well reasoned, there are aspects which would prevent it being taken seriously by those who would wish to sweep aside these issues.</p>
<p>First, it has not been properly proof-read and has literally dozens of typos. This suggests rushed and sloppy work.  Many of the citations in the text are missing from the reference section, so one does not know the quality of many of the sources of information or even if they say what is claimed.  Many references are of poor quality and credibility &#8211; privately-run websites, blogs, newspaper articles, etc.  More seriously, many assertions are presented as if facts, with no reference and no apparent research.  An example is (p.19): &#8220;This physically very large &#8216;albedo switch&#8217; [caused by loss of summer Arctic ice] will lead to further warming in the Arctic of several degrees which will contribute to the destabilization of the Greenland ice sheet&#8221;.  This is simply not proven to be the case, though in my opinion (an opinion only), it will probably happen.</p>
<p>It is a shame that is has so many obvious shortcomings, as a few days of extra work and more care would have made a very powerful and pursuasive document.</p>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/comment-page-1/#comment-52863</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/#comment-52863</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I should clarify, the end of economic growth isn&#039;t terrible news.  I was of course referencing the overall findings of Target Practice.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should clarify, the end of economic growth isn&#8217;t terrible news.  I was of course referencing the overall findings of Target Practice.</p>
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		<title>By: aaron</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/comment-page-1/#comment-52862</link>
		<dc:creator>aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/#comment-52862</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;Target Practice spells the end of economic growth, but also offers an unleashing of human creativity unparalleled in history.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Rob I love your ability to inspire hope in spite of terrible, terrible news.  Thank you for your work.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Target Practice spells the end of economic growth, but also offers an unleashing of human creativity unparalleled in history.&#8221;</p>
<p>Rob I love your ability to inspire hope in spite of terrible, terrible news.  Thank you for your work.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Morgan</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/comment-page-1/#comment-52856</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/#comment-52856</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&quot;Realistic targets&quot; - what scientists see as realistic in order to reduce CO2 below the current level and what politicians see as realistic (i.e. policies that will, as they see it, allow continued economic growth, are diametrically opposed.  On P.21 of the report it says a &quot;state of emergency&quot; would be needed to bring in the policies required.  Unless there is overwhelming public pressure, such a state would only be declared anytime in the next 10 years at least, if an ACTUAL climate emergency arose.  It could be argued what this would be.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;At the very least, something like a further 2-3 years dramatic decrease in arctic summer ice cover, down to say half the summer 2006 value.  More likely, it would have to be a reputable group of scientists (?lead by James Hansen) declaring that the Greenland and/or West Antarctic ice sheets had commenced an irreversible meltdown that would produce several metres of sea level rise this century.  Of course, then it might be too late.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For politician-led action before that time, a paradigm shift in thinking would be needed and that would only come through overwhelming public pressure through growth of popular movements, or some sort of phase-change in the economic landscape due to peak oil.  While the majority of people elect politicians on the basis of vaguely credible promises of economic growth, that is what politicians will continue to promise and action on climate change will continue to be token.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Realistic targets&#8221; &#8211; what scientists see as realistic in order to reduce CO2 below the current level and what politicians see as realistic (i.e. policies that will, as they see it, allow continued economic growth, are diametrically opposed.  On P.21 of the report it says a &#8220;state of emergency&#8221; would be needed to bring in the policies required.  Unless there is overwhelming public pressure, such a state would only be declared anytime in the next 10 years at least, if an ACTUAL climate emergency arose.  It could be argued what this would be.</p>
<p>At the very least, something like a further 2-3 years dramatic decrease in arctic summer ice cover, down to say half the summer 2006 value.  More likely, it would have to be a reputable group of scientists (?lead by James Hansen) declaring that the Greenland and/or West Antarctic ice sheets had commenced an irreversible meltdown that would produce several metres of sea level rise this century.  Of course, then it might be too late.</p>
<p>For politician-led action before that time, a paradigm shift in thinking would be needed and that would only come through overwhelming public pressure through growth of popular movements, or some sort of phase-change in the economic landscape due to peak oil.  While the majority of people elect politicians on the basis of vaguely credible promises of economic growth, that is what politicians will continue to promise and action on climate change will continue to be token.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Chamberlin</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/comment-page-1/#comment-52855</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun Chamberlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/#comment-52855</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;And it&#039;s not just the ministers we need to be challenging on this.  The UK&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stopclimatechaos.org/about_us/9.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Stop Climate Chaos Coalition&lt;/a&gt; includes many of the UK&#039;s leading environmental, international development and other campaigning bodies.  It is campaigning for 80% cuts by 2050 to keep us under a 2ºC rise..&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;They claim to be listening to the scientists and not to politicians, but it really isn&#039;t true is it?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;They are taking the current politics as their starting point, not the current science.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I am already involved in a productive email exchange with the Head of Policy at WDM, who is actually pretty sympathetic to my position.  With a few more protests from members I think we would see movement on this.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I have sent him the link to these reports, and I suggest we all campaign for the campaigners at least to work to realistic targets.  If they do not then how can we expect the Government to do so?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And it&#8217;s not just the ministers we need to be challenging on this.  The UK&#8217;s <a href="http://www.stopclimatechaos.org/about_us/9.asp" rel="nofollow">Stop Climate Chaos Coalition</a> includes many of the UK&#8217;s leading environmental, international development and other campaigning bodies.  It is campaigning for 80% cuts by 2050 to keep us under a 2ºC rise..</p>
<p>They claim to be listening to the scientists and not to politicians, but it really isn&#8217;t true is it?</p>
<p>They are taking the current politics as their starting point, not the current science.</p>
<p>I am already involved in a productive email exchange with the Head of Policy at WDM, who is actually pretty sympathetic to my position.  With a few more protests from members I think we would see movement on this.</p>
<p>I have sent him the link to these reports, and I suggest we all campaign for the campaigners at least to work to realistic targets.  If they do not then how can we expect the Government to do so?</p>
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		<title>By: ROG</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/comment-page-1/#comment-52853</link>
		<dc:creator>ROG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 12:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/2007/11/14/follow-up-to-the-big-melt-challenges-assumptions-on-co2-targets/#comment-52853</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Seeing the 95% cut in emissions required for my home country of Australia to keep within a 2 degree temperature rise (p 16) I wrote something - shall I say - downbeat. This on the day an election leaflet arrived exhorting me to &#039;go for growth!&#039; But then I deleted the downbeatness. There are already many places in Australia where people have gone beyond the parameters of a particular ecosystem state and moved into a new, less productive state, before they have even realised it has happened. In a way, global warming is just one more (big) mess we&#039;ve got to learn to live with, and patch up as best we can. We could, of course, be patching up more intelligently. If you knew we were going to &#039;solve&#039; global warming by the end of the century, would you live your life differently? What about if you knew we weren&#039;t going to solve it? I&#039;ve been re-reading &#039;Resilience Thinking&#039; by Walker and Salt. Walker is one of the people who brought us the Resilience Alliance website. Really insightful and useful stuff.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing the 95% cut in emissions required for my home country of Australia to keep within a 2 degree temperature rise (p 16) I wrote something &#8211; shall I say &#8211; downbeat. This on the day an election leaflet arrived exhorting me to &#8216;go for growth!&#8217; But then I deleted the downbeatness. There are already many places in Australia where people have gone beyond the parameters of a particular ecosystem state and moved into a new, less productive state, before they have even realised it has happened. In a way, global warming is just one more (big) mess we&#8217;ve got to learn to live with, and patch up as best we can. We could, of course, be patching up more intelligently. If you knew we were going to &#8216;solve&#8217; global warming by the end of the century, would you live your life differently? What about if you knew we weren&#8217;t going to solve it? I&#8217;ve been re-reading &#8216;Resilience Thinking&#8217; by Walker and Salt. Walker is one of the people who brought us the Resilience Alliance website. Really insightful and useful stuff.</p>
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