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	<title>Comments on: Peak Oil Denial Comes in Many Forms&#8230;</title>
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	<description>An Evolving Exploration into the Head, Heart and Hands of Energy Descent</description>
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		<title>By: Shiner</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2006/02/08/peak-oil-denial-comes-in-many-forms/comment-page-1/#comment-56675</link>
		<dc:creator>Shiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 22:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=224#comment-56675</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Adam if you think 2/3 of us will shuffle off into the night quietly think again. The society you describe will happen but not until humans climb out of the chaos that will herald the begining of the end of life as we know it.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam if you think 2/3 of us will shuffle off into the night quietly think again. The society you describe will happen but not until humans climb out of the chaos that will herald the begining of the end of life as we know it.</p>
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		<title>By: adam f</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2006/02/08/peak-oil-denial-comes-in-many-forms/comment-page-1/#comment-197</link>
		<dc:creator>adam f</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2006 06:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=224#comment-197</guid>
		<description>road warrior, even mad max was ended up helping the co-operative self sufficiency types.  it&#039;s not a very helpful mindset to consider anything less than the worst case scenario &#039;denial&#039;.  It&#039;s probably denial not to consider that as one of the many possibilites, but insisting on it is self fulling as greg said.

Robert Anton Wilson uses these examples of that dynamic:

&quot;The outstanding example of the negative self-fulfilling prophecy in our century is Joseph Stalin, who always believed himself surrounded by enemies.  His own party, he suspected, was permeated by deviationists who hated him.  He steadily increased the size and powers of the secret police, and each chief of the secret police, in turn, was executed as one of the plotters against him.  They all signed confessions before they died;  Stalin insisted on that.  He wanted it in black and white, proof that his suspicions were justified.  Eventually, it appears, his closes associates conspired to poison him.  In contrast, there is the case of R. Buckminster Fuller, who stood one day in 1928 on the shore of Lake Michigan contemplating suicide.  He was despairing because of his daughter&#039;s death by polio and his own lack of financial success as a construction engineer.  But, in a internal linkmoment of internal linkSufi insight, Fuller decided to gamble that the universe had some use for him.  Today, he is not only one of the most influential scientists in the world, the inventor of a new system of mathematics and a universally respected philosopher and poet, he is also a multimillionaire.  He is one of the most radiantly optimistic men on this planet, as everybody who has ever heard him lecture will appreciate.  Now, let&#039;s not confuse self-fulfilling prophecy with the puerilities of positive thinking or other Pollyanna philosophies that ignore reality totally in favor of a cocoon of self-delusion.  Bucky Fuller, for instance, has had his share of hard times since his act of faith in 1928.  His dymaxion automobile cracked up on a trial run and was never mass-manufactured.  His most important scientific ideas were ignored for nearly two decades during which he was dismissed as a brilliant crank.  He has experienced the usual human bereavements.  Nevertheless, he transcended all such setbacks by believing that he could do something good in this universe.&quot;

If we do reach a critical point in some places where neighbours attack neighbours, there&#039;s no point trying to grow your own food or doing anything especially productive, so the whole community is lost.  The re-emerging importance of local conditions might make it even quite likely in some unfortunate places, but less likely in others.  But it&#039;s certainly not predetermined.

Which is all the more reason to push the kind of work Rob and others are doing, which is community oriented so is completely on track to avoiding - at the very least - that critical breaking point.  Whatsmore it goes way beyond that defensive position, envisages the opportunity for strenghtened communities.  Relocalised economies with friendly people on the street will reduce the incidents of theft and violence without policing.  The good will you&#039;re promoting, the vision of a better future, grounded in permaculture design, practical skills and a series of short term goals - I can&#039;t think of a better way to deal with those darkest concerns.  I think these are compelling and practical enough visions to make a real difference, to themselves become self fullfiling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>road warrior, even mad max was ended up helping the co-operative self sufficiency types.  it&#8217;s not a very helpful mindset to consider anything less than the worst case scenario &#8216;denial&#8217;.  It&#8217;s probably denial not to consider that as one of the many possibilites, but insisting on it is self fulling as greg said.</p>
<p>Robert Anton Wilson uses these examples of that dynamic:</p>
<p>&#8220;The outstanding example of the negative self-fulfilling prophecy in our century is Joseph Stalin, who always believed himself surrounded by enemies.  His own party, he suspected, was permeated by deviationists who hated him.  He steadily increased the size and powers of the secret police, and each chief of the secret police, in turn, was executed as one of the plotters against him.  They all signed confessions before they died;  Stalin insisted on that.  He wanted it in black and white, proof that his suspicions were justified.  Eventually, it appears, his closes associates conspired to poison him.  In contrast, there is the case of R. Buckminster Fuller, who stood one day in 1928 on the shore of Lake Michigan contemplating suicide.  He was despairing because of his daughter&#8217;s death by polio and his own lack of financial success as a construction engineer.  But, in a internal linkmoment of internal linkSufi insight, Fuller decided to gamble that the universe had some use for him.  Today, he is not only one of the most influential scientists in the world, the inventor of a new system of mathematics and a universally respected philosopher and poet, he is also a multimillionaire.  He is one of the most radiantly optimistic men on this planet, as everybody who has ever heard him lecture will appreciate.  Now, let&#8217;s not confuse self-fulfilling prophecy with the puerilities of positive thinking or other Pollyanna philosophies that ignore reality totally in favor of a cocoon of self-delusion.  Bucky Fuller, for instance, has had his share of hard times since his act of faith in 1928.  His dymaxion automobile cracked up on a trial run and was never mass-manufactured.  His most important scientific ideas were ignored for nearly two decades during which he was dismissed as a brilliant crank.  He has experienced the usual human bereavements.  Nevertheless, he transcended all such setbacks by believing that he could do something good in this universe.&#8221;</p>
<p>If we do reach a critical point in some places where neighbours attack neighbours, there&#8217;s no point trying to grow your own food or doing anything especially productive, so the whole community is lost.  The re-emerging importance of local conditions might make it even quite likely in some unfortunate places, but less likely in others.  But it&#8217;s certainly not predetermined.</p>
<p>Which is all the more reason to push the kind of work Rob and others are doing, which is community oriented so is completely on track to avoiding &#8211; at the very least &#8211; that critical breaking point.  Whatsmore it goes way beyond that defensive position, envisages the opportunity for strenghtened communities.  Relocalised economies with friendly people on the street will reduce the incidents of theft and violence without policing.  The good will you&#8217;re promoting, the vision of a better future, grounded in permaculture design, practical skills and a series of short term goals &#8211; I can&#8217;t think of a better way to deal with those darkest concerns.  I think these are compelling and practical enough visions to make a real difference, to themselves become self fullfiling.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Krafchick</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2006/02/08/peak-oil-denial-comes-in-many-forms/comment-page-1/#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Krafchick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2006 22:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=224#comment-194</guid>
		<description>I agree that some of the Powerdown scenarios out there are hopelessly optimistic (I tried to read &quot;Natural Capitalism&quot; coauthored by Paul Hawken and couldn&#039;t get past the first page - it was cartoonishly utopian) but at the same time to resign oneself to despair and chaos is something of a self-fulfilling prophesy. We have to try to preserve and save the best parts of ourselves as a society in the face of some very grim facts. To not try, to not aspire to some different sustainability paradigm is to embark upon a very hopeless existence until each of us shuffles off this mortal coil.

There&#039;s denial, and then there&#039;s complete fatalism. I would rather walk the line between the two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that some of the Powerdown scenarios out there are hopelessly optimistic (I tried to read &#8220;Natural Capitalism&#8221; coauthored by Paul Hawken and couldn&#8217;t get past the first page &#8211; it was cartoonishly utopian) but at the same time to resign oneself to despair and chaos is something of a self-fulfilling prophesy. We have to try to preserve and save the best parts of ourselves as a society in the face of some very grim facts. To not try, to not aspire to some different sustainability paradigm is to embark upon a very hopeless existence until each of us shuffles off this mortal coil.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s denial, and then there&#8217;s complete fatalism. I would rather walk the line between the two.</p>
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		<title>By: Arif Hasan Akhundzada</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2006/02/08/peak-oil-denial-comes-in-many-forms/comment-page-1/#comment-193</link>
		<dc:creator>Arif Hasan Akhundzada</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2006 21:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=224#comment-193</guid>
		<description>The apathy you talk about has been the attitude of humanity at all stages in its history, so why not now? It is a normal characteristic. And no &quot;celebrity&quot; - the type of people whose words make an impact - has taken up a 24/7 campaign for Peak Oil either. In these days of information overload and confusion, things get worse, although one would have thought the opposite to be true. Harry Potter and Britney Spears grab more attention than they are worth, and yet they are not &quot;survival-concerned issues&quot;. It is the same in any prosperous well-fed society. Perhaps a comet or asteroid just a few days&#039; time away from collision with Earth, getting prominent media coverage all round would be another matter, but Peak Oil is not so &quot;urgent&quot; or stimulating an issue for ordinary people used to easy living - not even the coming Iran war, with all its implications - as perhaps a major league football match would be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The apathy you talk about has been the attitude of humanity at all stages in its history, so why not now? It is a normal characteristic. And no &#8220;celebrity&#8221; &#8211; the type of people whose words make an impact &#8211; has taken up a 24/7 campaign for Peak Oil either. In these days of information overload and confusion, things get worse, although one would have thought the opposite to be true. Harry Potter and Britney Spears grab more attention than they are worth, and yet they are not &#8220;survival-concerned issues&#8221;. It is the same in any prosperous well-fed society. Perhaps a comet or asteroid just a few days&#8217; time away from collision with Earth, getting prominent media coverage all round would be another matter, but Peak Oil is not so &#8220;urgent&#8221; or stimulating an issue for ordinary people used to easy living &#8211; not even the coming Iran war, with all its implications &#8211; as perhaps a major league football match would be.</p>
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		<title>By: Road Warrior</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2006/02/08/peak-oil-denial-comes-in-many-forms/comment-page-1/#comment-192</link>
		<dc:creator>Road Warrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Feb 2006 14:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=224#comment-192</guid>
		<description>...or is it denile to think we can create Energy Decent Plans or Powerdown Scemes and still think they have a snowflake&#039;s chance in hell of working?  If you think you can create a sustainable community and not have your stupid hungry neighbours with nails on the end of a stick come and take it away from you, then that is the biggest denile of them all.

I&#039;m preparing for the energy crisis, but the last thing I&#039;d do is tell anyone how, where or what I&#039;m doing.  I think it&#039;s time we all thought about the nasty things that will happen when the lights go out and 911 doesn&#039;t work anymore.

And next time you post some juicey info on how to survive after PO, think about who&#039;s going to be reading it and what they are likely to do when feeding their belly is the number one priority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;or is it denile to think we can create Energy Decent Plans or Powerdown Scemes and still think they have a snowflake&#8217;s chance in hell of working?  If you think you can create a sustainable community and not have your stupid hungry neighbours with nails on the end of a stick come and take it away from you, then that is the biggest denile of them all.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m preparing for the energy crisis, but the last thing I&#8217;d do is tell anyone how, where or what I&#8217;m doing.  I think it&#8217;s time we all thought about the nasty things that will happen when the lights go out and 911 doesn&#8217;t work anymore.</p>
<p>And next time you post some juicey info on how to survive after PO, think about who&#8217;s going to be reading it and what they are likely to do when feeding their belly is the number one priority.</p>
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		<title>By: janusville</title>
		<link>http://transitionculture.org/2006/02/08/peak-oil-denial-comes-in-many-forms/comment-page-1/#comment-160</link>
		<dc:creator>janusville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2006 12:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transitionculture.org/?p=224#comment-160</guid>
		<description>That last paragraph is the key- We&#039;re all in some form of denial, given that no one knows exactly when and how peakoil will play out, and given financial limitations, at least in my life, it&#039;s very difficult to invest in what&#039;s needed to transition. Living lightly on the land is and always has been the closest thing to preparing for peakoil, but when it hits, no matter what it&#039;s going to be ugly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That last paragraph is the key- We&#8217;re all in some form of denial, given that no one knows exactly when and how peakoil will play out, and given financial limitations, at least in my life, it&#8217;s very difficult to invest in what&#8217;s needed to transition. Living lightly on the land is and always has been the closest thing to preparing for peakoil, but when it hits, no matter what it&#8217;s going to be ugly.</p>
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